Comments on: Chinese Medicine Demystified (Part IV): How Acupuncture Works http://thehealthyskeptic.org/chinese-medicine-demystified-part-iv-how-acupuncture-works?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=chinese-medicine-demystified-part-iv-how-acupuncture-works Challenging mainstream myths about nutrition, health and disease Fri, 10 Sep 2010 00:06:54 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: Chris Kresser http://thehealthyskeptic.org/chinese-medicine-demystified-part-iv-how-acupuncture-works/comment-page-1#comment-2101 Chris Kresser Sun, 29 Aug 2010 14:20:30 +0000 http://thehealthyskeptic.org/?p=364#comment-2101 I see where you're coming from, but I can't agree with your analogies. I do believe patients should be informed about how statins work (and don't work, actually) so they can decide whether they need to take them at all, or can use other less invasive, less harmful methods. The same for aspirin. I also believe - and the research clearly supports this - that when a patient 1) has a positive attitude about their treatment, and 2) believes that it will work, the treatment will be more effective. Explaining how acupuncture works in language they can understand is a step in that direction for most, although there's certainly a minority of patients (and practitioners) that prefers a more mystical, magical explanation. I see where you’re coming from, but I can’t agree with your analogies. I do believe patients should be informed about how statins work (and don’t work, actually) so they can decide whether they need to take them at all, or can use other less invasive, less harmful methods. The same for aspirin. I also believe – and the research clearly supports this – that when a patient 1) has a positive attitude about their treatment, and 2) believes that it will work, the treatment will be more effective. Explaining how acupuncture works in language they can understand is a step in that direction for most, although there’s certainly a minority of patients (and practitioners) that prefers a more mystical, magical explanation.

]]> By: Beavis http://thehealthyskeptic.org/chinese-medicine-demystified-part-iv-how-acupuncture-works/comment-page-1#comment-2099 Beavis Sun, 29 Aug 2010 12:53:26 +0000 http://thehealthyskeptic.org/?p=364#comment-2099 Your series is very interesting, and I know there is a desire among many Westerners to understand Chinese Medicine in Western terms, but I do not agree that there is a "moral obligation" on the part of practitioners to be able to trot those mechanisms out on demand. If you can successfully treat patients and have them recover from their illness, is it that important that patients know the physiological mechanisms that do the job? Do patients in the West know how the statin drugs they are taking do what they do, and why? Do they even know why the aspirin they take helps alleviate their headache? On the other side of the coin, do successful treatments based on Meridian Theory mean that the acupuncturist just got lucky, while poking around in the dark? I think there is much more work to be done in reconciling the thought processes and perceptions of East and West.   Your series is very interesting, and I know there is a desire among many Westerners to understand Chinese Medicine in Western terms, but I do not agree that there is a “moral obligation” on the part of practitioners to be able to trot those mechanisms out on demand. If you can successfully treat patients and have them recover from their illness, is it that important that patients know the physiological mechanisms that do the job? Do patients in the West know how the statin drugs they are taking do what they do, and why? Do they even know why the aspirin they take helps alleviate their headache? On the other side of the coin, do successful treatments based on Meridian Theory mean that the acupuncturist just got lucky, while poking around in the dark? I think there is much more work to be done in reconciling the thought processes and perceptions of East and West.
 

]]> By: brad whisnant http://thehealthyskeptic.org/chinese-medicine-demystified-part-iv-how-acupuncture-works/comment-page-1#comment-2003 brad whisnant Wed, 04 Aug 2010 21:35:57 +0000 http://thehealthyskeptic.org/?p=364#comment-2003 Nicely done chris, I too am a senior student of Dr. Tan, and the Master Tung style.  I apprecaite your knowledge and explanation.  I talk about this all the time.  There is NO ENERGY required to do acupuncture.  It works off of very biologicaly and scientific reasons.  Very easy to understand.  As we know, energy is in everything, and at a quantum level we are ALL ENERGY...but this is NOT WHY OR WHY NOT acupuncture works or doesnt work.... thank you....now lets see if we can cant change the entire TCM school system to quit propagating these lies about the invisible meridians and Qi that MISTRANSLATED...it means "vital air", as in OXYGEN...not energy. i urge any acupuncturist a MUST MUST MUST MUST read or anybody who want to know the truth of a very scientific and discplined chinese medicine...read The Dao of Chinese medicine, by Kendall...... Bob doane is a master at explaining this, so Dr. Kendall.  I see over 30 patients by myself each day, i work with doctors--western and Eastern.  And do we talk methaphorically about the concepts of chinese medicine? Yes, it helps us understand the disease process.  But when it comes to how acupuncture works, there is no use for mistranslated explanations from 1910's and the 1950's.  There IS NO MAGIC IN OUR MEDICINE..... There IS NO MAGIC IN THE NEEDLE.... There is NO MAGIC IN THE HERBS... the magic is the bodies ability to heal once it is given the right healing modality.  that is the true magic, the power of the human body, wether we use Eastern medicine, Western medicine, or NO MEDICINE....the body is amazing thanks again chris, nicely done!!!! Nicely done chris,

I too am a senior student of Dr. Tan, and the Master Tung style.  I apprecaite your knowledge and explanation.  I talk about this all the time.  There is NO ENERGY required to do acupuncture.  It works off of very biologicaly and scientific reasons.  Very easy to understand.  As we know, energy is in everything, and at a quantum level we are ALL ENERGY…but this is NOT WHY OR WHY NOT acupuncture works or doesnt work….

thank you….now lets see if we can cant change the entire TCM school system to quit propagating these lies about the invisible meridians and Qi that MISTRANSLATED…it means “vital air”, as in OXYGEN…not energy.

i urge any acupuncturist a MUST MUST MUST MUST read or anybody who want to know the truth of a very scientific and discplined chinese medicine…read

The Dao of Chinese medicine, by Kendall……

Bob doane is a master at explaining this, so Dr. Kendall. 

I see over 30 patients by myself each day, i work with doctors–western and Eastern.  And do we talk methaphorically about the concepts of chinese medicine? Yes, it helps us understand the disease process.  But when it comes to how acupuncture works, there is no use for mistranslated explanations from 1910′s and the 1950′s. 

There IS NO MAGIC IN OUR MEDICINE…..
There IS NO MAGIC IN THE NEEDLE….
There is NO MAGIC IN THE HERBS…

the magic is the bodies ability to heal once it is given the right healing modality.  that is the true magic, the power of the human body, wether we use Eastern medicine, Western medicine, or NO MEDICINE….the body is amazing

thanks again chris, nicely done!!!!

]]> By: Chris Kresser http://thehealthyskeptic.org/chinese-medicine-demystified-part-iv-how-acupuncture-works/comment-page-1#comment-1405 Chris Kresser Sun, 13 Jun 2010 03:10:16 +0000 http://thehealthyskeptic.org/?p=364#comment-1405 <p>Yes, I do use pulse diagnosis but no, there is no scientific explanation that I'm aware of.  It's a mystery, but it works.</p> Yes, I do use pulse diagnosis but no, there is no scientific explanation that I’m aware of.  It’s a mystery, but it works.

]]> By: Marley http://thehealthyskeptic.org/chinese-medicine-demystified-part-iv-how-acupuncture-works/comment-page-1#comment-1403 Marley Sun, 13 Jun 2010 02:12:03 +0000 http://thehealthyskeptic.org/?p=364#comment-1403 yeah that makes sense, we seem to live in a very pro-sympathetic world. It ties into the stuff you have said about the omega 3-6 imbalance and the chronic inflammation that arises. Personally I am allergic to most fish , although I have just started trying fish oil and this seems ok. I have always had various allergies/asthma & ITP so the lack of omega 3 probably doesnt help . Do you use pulse diagnosis , and is there any science behind this?   yeah that makes sense, we seem to live in a very pro-sympathetic world. It ties into the stuff you have said about the omega 3-6 imbalance and the chronic inflammation that arises. Personally I am allergic to most fish , although I have just started trying fish oil and this seems ok. I have always had various allergies/asthma & ITP so the lack of omega 3 probably doesnt help
. Do you use pulse diagnosis , and is there any science behind this?
 

]]> By: Chris Kresser http://thehealthyskeptic.org/chinese-medicine-demystified-part-iv-how-acupuncture-works/comment-page-1#comment-1394 Chris Kresser Sat, 12 Jun 2010 14:25:32 +0000 http://thehealthyskeptic.org/?p=364#comment-1394 <p>Yes, my understanding is that the concha of the ear is the most accessible site for influencing the vagal nerve.  I use ear points in every single treatment because there's not a person I see that doesn't need some parasympathetic support.</p> Yes, my understanding is that the concha of the ear is the most accessible site for influencing the vagal nerve.  I use ear points in every single treatment because there’s not a person I see that doesn’t need some parasympathetic support.

]]> By: Marley http://thehealthyskeptic.org/chinese-medicine-demystified-part-iv-how-acupuncture-works/comment-page-1#comment-1393 Marley Sat, 12 Jun 2010 10:41:05 +0000 http://thehealthyskeptic.org/?p=364#comment-1393 Thanks for the reply chris, Both TCM and the western principles are amazing in their own way, so its nice to hear a mixed approach works. At the moment we are learning about the sympathetic and parasympathetic systems and how needling the ear or scalp points can decrease inflammation through the vagal nerve. Fascinating stuff Thanks for the reply chris,
Both TCM and the western principles are amazing in their own way, so its nice to hear a mixed approach works. At the moment we are learning about the sympathetic and parasympathetic systems and how needling the ear or scalp points can decrease inflammation through the vagal nerve. Fascinating stuff

]]> By: Chris Kresser http://thehealthyskeptic.org/chinese-medicine-demystified-part-iv-how-acupuncture-works/comment-page-1#comment-1391 Chris Kresser Fri, 11 Jun 2010 14:07:02 +0000 http://thehealthyskeptic.org/?p=364#comment-1391 I'll get myself in trouble with other acupuncturists for saying this, but I don't believe the various needle techniques (twisting, inserting while breathing in or out, etc.) affect the clinical results much. My acupuncture teacher, Dr. Tan, who lectures all over the world and is a very successful practitioner, doesn't either - so I'm not alone. I don't think there's much danger in performing Western acupuncture without understanding the TCM philosophies. I say that because acupuncture is historically a channel-based therapy, not a "zang fu" therapy as herbal medicine is. I’ll get myself in trouble with other acupuncturists for saying this, but I don’t believe the various needle techniques (twisting, inserting while breathing in or out, etc.) affect the clinical results much. My acupuncture teacher, Dr. Tan, who lectures all over the world and is a very successful practitioner, doesn’t either – so I’m not alone. I don’t think there’s much danger in performing Western acupuncture without understanding the TCM philosophies. I say that because acupuncture is historically a channel-based therapy, not a “zang fu” therapy as herbal medicine is.

]]> By: Marley http://thehealthyskeptic.org/chinese-medicine-demystified-part-iv-how-acupuncture-works/comment-page-1#comment-1374 Marley Wed, 09 Jun 2010 21:27:14 +0000 http://thehealthyskeptic.org/?p=364#comment-1374 Hi, thanks for the interesting reading. I am a physiotherapist currently studying western acupuncture and am learning alot about the pathways you have described. I am also trying to pick up on some of the TCM principles which is difficult at times, but its good to know there is a common ground between the two approaches. Is there any danger of treating patients with acupuncture without understanding all of the TCM philosophies? For example, does the direction of twisting the needle actually tonify or sedate the 'meridian'? Or if I use a point from a western approach, can it have some adverse effect based on TCM? It explain now why we are still using the same points from thousands of years ago thanks Hi, thanks for the interesting reading. I am a physiotherapist currently studying western acupuncture and am learning alot about the pathways you have described. I am also trying to pick up on some of the TCM principles which is difficult at times, but its good to know there is a common ground between the two approaches. Is there any danger of treating patients with acupuncture without understanding all of the TCM philosophies? For example, does the direction of twisting the needle actually tonify or sedate the ‘meridian’? Or if I use a point from a western approach, can it have some adverse effect based on TCM?
It explain now why we are still using the same points from thousands of years ago
thanks

]]> By: Chris Kresser http://thehealthyskeptic.org/chinese-medicine-demystified-part-iv-how-acupuncture-works/comment-page-1#comment-942 Chris Kresser Wed, 28 Apr 2010 22:43:38 +0000 http://thehealthyskeptic.org/?p=364#comment-942 Crystal, Penetrating the skin isn't required to stimulate a PNS response. Contact or toothpick needling would not promote the local tissue response to needling I described, but it could induce the PNS-mediated analgesic response (i.e. activation of the C-delta fibers and subsequent release of endorphins). There's still a lot we don't understand about how it works, and I never claimed that the explanation I offered was exhaustive. However, there's absolutely no evidence supporting the notion of "energy" flowing through invisible meridians. I am a long-time practitioner of internal arts such as Qi Gong, Taiji and Ba Gua. There is nothing about these practices that requires the idea of Qi as energy to explain their effectiveness. Crystal,

Penetrating the skin isn’t required to stimulate a PNS response. Contact or toothpick needling would not promote the local tissue response to needling I described, but it could induce the PNS-mediated analgesic response (i.e. activation of the C-delta fibers and subsequent release of endorphins).

There’s still a lot we don’t understand about how it works, and I never claimed that the explanation I offered was exhaustive. However, there’s absolutely no evidence supporting the notion of “energy” flowing through invisible meridians.

I am a long-time practitioner of internal arts such as Qi Gong, Taiji and Ba Gua. There is nothing about these practices that requires the idea of Qi as energy to explain their effectiveness.

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